FS: stop shooting yourselves in the foot and let us talk freely about Factsheet content


  • Contributor

    Dear FS team,
    @kaeley-wn @vamsi7 @kahmeng @shaun @Tom-FS @enentan @yscenteno

    The purpose of this post is to clarify what can and cannot be shared in this forum, and, if applicable, why did you decide so, other than bulls**t about protecting the anonymity of the issuer, which you will always preserve unless you publish their name.

    To clarify: which info is available to discuss in Crowdfundtalks? and for those bullet points that are not, why?

    • Company rating and probability of default, e.g: EEE (22.81%)
    • PnL, Balance Sheet, PGs, or financial ratios evolution: e.g: “the company has registered losses for 3 consecutive years” or “the net worth of the company is -7M”, or “the Paid Up capital of the company is only RM 50,000”, or “the PGs seem very old to me”
    • Industry Retail Trading
    • Funding amount RM 203,000
    • Tenor 120 days
    • Simple interest rate p.a. 12.5%
    • Service Fee 15% on interest
    • Repayment Bullet (option to early settlement)
    • Issuer Activity Issuer is a distributor of automobile retail products
    • Credt line limit Issuer has been approved a credit line limit of RM3.5M.
    • The existing exposure with FS
    • Total exposure inclusive of new CF will be RM3,384,243.18
    • Screenshots of the factsheet to illustrate the points above, especially PnL, Balance Sheet, and financial ratios evolution

    If I take multiple other P2P forums I participate in Europe, the whole point of the forums is to discuss opinions on upcoming opportunities in crowdlending and crowdfunding platforms. Funding Societies is already a saturated platform from the point of view of loan demand, since you have so many investors. People have to camp to invest, and they have barely some hours to decide if to invest or not. If on top of this, you stifle further discussion about the loans, you are just promoting having a herd of sheep investors who will just settle their auto-bots and pray for FS to have performed a proper due diligence. Take @k555 view here for example. Is that what you want to achieve?

    I don't even bother reading the factsheets now. I used to read them, but can't make out much out of them.

    I just rely on Autobot to invest in notes with 12% interest or lower to filter out the high risk. If default continue to happen, I will continue lowering the lowering interest/risk until a point when I decide P2P returns is not worth my time and effort anymore.

    If you set up CrowdFund Talks to provide “an environment that empowers free and active expression”, in the words of @kaeley-wn, why the heavens would you prevent forum readers from exchanging their views, good or bad, about the loans you publish? You have the best factsheet in town. Now, let us talk freely about it.

    0_1556958469782_23d33f5d-7185-453c-99c6-3d291978907b-image.png

    And you, what do you think?

    @rahulsk1947 @Ng-Seng-He @horkh @jomni @wjchay @tckw93 @chictrader @jonhan @k555 @ERIC-THE-RED @ktinvest @2387581 @johnchaw @tchoe85 @JC18 @wekwek @popter @BigBoiBoi @rajpuga @mjjjjj @novex @wakeng @jordy @JLHC



  • Thank you for bringing up a very important point, @antoniomc27.

    I'm going to make a guess and say that the majority of P2P investors are like me: I don't know a whole lot about the fine mechanics of P2P investing, but want to give it a go anyway, which is why it is largely an experiment for me.

    Because of this, I rely on the insights of fellow investors who know a whole lot more than me (and are justifiably hawk-eyed about what's going on) to learn from, debate and grow as an investor, so I can make better decisions in this area.

    And if this forum -- which is an amazing resource because it lets us interact directly with FS staff, who btw, are doing an awesome job with it-- doesn't help me do that, then why am I here?

    Like everyone else here, I'd love to see more transparency, the encouragement of debate (respectfully, of course) and greater willingness to work towards solutions rather than feel like everyone is obliged to agree with FS/each other, or feel like they're walking on eggshells whenever something is questioned.



  • @antoniomc27

    Wait, are you saying that Crowfundtalks restricts what we can or cannot discuss about with regards to the FS notes? Sorry I wasn't aware of it until you brought it up. I thought we CAN discuss everything about the notes in a forum.

    @antoniomc27 please post the reference which states the restrictions set upon us. I would appreciate that.


  • Contributor

    @jordy how to point it at you, if the thread was deleted? ;)

    Sarcasm aside, it was a post like this one, plus screenshots of the PnL and Risk Assessment in the Factsheet to illustrate the point. Current post is maimed and doesn’t allow for proper post-mortem analysis in my opinion.

    https://crowdfundtalks.com/topic/755/repost-mbbt-1904xxxx-or-the-financial-shenanigans-of-an-issuer



  • @antoniomc27. On point bro, since the surge of late repayments and 1/2 defaults in Feb 2019 this year. I've stopped investing in FSMY and on the "look-see" approach. In other words FSMY no longer have my confidence and I would rather park my fund in REIT portfolio for stability and move the fund to US stock market when I wanted to be aggressive. Yes , US stock market is riskier than P2P but you can liquidate anytime to cut lost.



  • @jordy
    For your reference.
    "Crowdfund Talks: Rules & Regulations"
    https://crowdfundtalks.com/post/80

    "Do not reveal parties' details in your loan discussion
    As part of investors' contracts with borrowers of Business Term Loans or Invoice financing, you may not reveal any information which may identify the parties involved."

    'Do not discuss any loan before or during crowdfunding
    As part of the regulations in Singapore, discussion of any upcoming or ongoing investment opportunity is not allowed on the forum."
    alt text


  • Contributor

    @zephyrloh +1
    They better act well and safeguard investor’s interest against the defaulters or they will see my money fly out of the platform very quickly.



  • @antoniomc27 Totally agree ! Plenty of other places for investments.



  • @antoniomc27

    Ok, I read that thread you created and I finally understand you. I agree with you that we should be allowed to post screenshots of any part of the factsheet which have been made public. It does not violate the forum rules as pointed out by @ERIC-THE-RED, we are not revealing any information which may cause the identity of the issuers/borrowers to be exposed. I say we should be allowed to talk and discuss any part of the factsheet without restrictions. Due diligence should be allowed in the forum!



  • @jordy
    FSMY also emphasized that investors do not discuss any loan before or during crowdfunding.

    Discussion of any upcoming or ongoing investment opportunity is NOT allowed on the forum.


  • Funding Societies

    Dear @antoniomc27 and everyone else who's contributed to this thread,

    The team is listening closely, and we will be providing a follow-up to this shortly. Given that this is an open, public forum serving P2P investors from both FS Malaysia & FS Singapore, as well as general public, we have been treading on this issue carefully, so as to ensure the forum complies with the different regulations which exist in both jurisdictions, and at the same time safeguard both investors' and borrowers' interests.

    Thank you all for voicing your opinions and we appreciate your candor -- it's been really helpful in letting us know what matters to investors, especially when it comes to making informed investment decisions. Please do bear with us as our team (in both Malaysia & Singapore) works something out which considers all of these perspectives. We'll provide an update as soon as we've done so.



  • @vamsi7 FundingSocieties Malaysia and Singapore have sufficient members and should be able to be kept separate from now on. This separation will be better as the regulations for each section can be adhered to and to prevent overlapping regulations. There should be more transparency where the Fact Sheets are concerned and issuers of notes for funding should identify themselves for investors to make informed decisions. Of late investors have been given less time to make informed decisions as some notes have come in rapid fire sequences.


  • Contributor

    @englang-thai interesting point. But I do think investors of one and each country enrich themselves from the views across the border. If that separation does come, I hope it does not disrupt current cross-border interaction.


  • Emergent

    Maybe a separate forum section just for discussing about loan info.



  • @antoniomc27 We can always follow both but with clearer regulations. The regulations might defer.



  • @antoniomc27

    1. This web site is set up by FS, thus FS has a right delete any post that they deemed fit.
    2. Talking about statement highlighted by red underline, please do not believe 100% on what you read in internet.
    3. If FS barring us to do it here, we can bring our forum elsewhere.

  • Contributor

    @horkh I appreciate your view.

    1. I think they know better than that. They are smart and they know that, were they having that mentality, they would deter a lot of forum users.

    To draw a comparison, flashback 12 months ago. It would be like saying FS is their platform, and they can show the info they deem fit in their factsheet, so no need to implement what users of this forum are requesting. Yes, there was no obligation in doing so, but they did. They implemented like 20+ new features, and it is precisely that reactivity what puts them ahead of the curve.

    1. It was a statement by the very own forum administrator. Same as #1 😛


  • Hmmmm thanks for sharing this @antoniomc27. Though personally I can't relate as strongly, as I usually go for the minimum investments and barely open factsheets. They are a useful resource though, and I only scrutinise them if I'm deciding to invest much more in a particular loan.



  • Thanks for bring this up @antoniomc27
    I agree with you on the points you raised above. Similar to @ZephyrLoh, I have reduced my investment in FS due to these limitations, surge of defaults. Will closely monitor the development moving forward before investing more.



  • My view is that “Agency Theory” is always at work here, i.e. maximising profits as an example, be it P2P platforms or investors. True that FS has an autoinvest function that can “lure” investors to invest into “undesirable” notes.

    Question is who is to blame for setting up “one own self to autoinvest”.

    History tends to repeat itself, the minibond saga, Hyflux high yield perpetuals/preference notes/shares saga and maybe the “autoinvest”

    A Rhetorical Question; someone dig a big hole (e.g ratings of EEE), another one setup autoinvest(which walking towards the HOLE) and not did not “opt out” and fell into the HOLE. Do you blame the digger of the HOLE or the walker (for closing to close his eyes and not opt out).

    An analogy, do you blame the gun manufacturer (I.e FS listed a EEE rating and published a fact sheet before listing) or the shooter (who did not see the fact sheet and opt out and he/she set up autoinvest to begin with)

    As usual, Caveat Emptor (I pity the chasers of high yields without doing proper Due Diligence). Autoinvest at your own risk!


  • Contributor

    @racingcar very good analogy!
    But I would like to point out that this whole AGENCYGATE case 18090034 is even worse, we are not only talking about investors who let themselves fall in the hole by “carelessly” letting the autoinvest work for them.
    We are also talking about a prominent feature of FS (outstanding amount with the borrower) that was clearly misleading due to negligence or recklessness or whatever we want to call it.

    To follow your amusing comparison, FS published the string of notes notes making people (even those who practice manual allocation, not blind auto one) believe there were 4 POTHOLES, when they were actually walking us down the goddamn GRAND CANYON.



  • @racingcar

    CAVEAT EMPTOR Defined
    Latin words. "Let the buyer beware."
    This rule used to generally apply to all sales, especially between individuals.

    It gives the buyer full responsibility for determining the quality of the goods in question.

    The seller generally has no duty to offer warranties or to disclose defects in the goods.
    © 1995 - 2019 The 'Lectric Law Library®

    So, the investor is fully responsible for checking the quality of the loan. If the loan gone bad or the platform gone rogue, it is the investor's fault too??!!



  • @racingcar

    Greed is clouding up people's eyes. We should stick to the mantra that "if the returns is too good to be true, then it probably is". Do not gamble and do not risk it. There is a reason issuers dish out such high yields. We do not need a rocket scientist to figure that out.



  • @vamsi7 said in FS: stop shooting yourselves in the foot and let us talk freely about Factsheet content:

    Dear @antoniomc27 and everyone else who's contributed to this thread,

    The team is listening closely, and we will be providing a follow-up to this shortly. Given that this is an open, public forum serving P2P investors from both FS Malaysia & FS Singapore, as well as general public, we have been treading on this issue carefully, so as to ensure the forum complies with the different regulations which exist in both jurisdictions, and at the same time safeguard both investors' and borrowers' interests.

    Thank you all for voicing your opinions and we appreciate your candor -- it's been really helpful in letting us know what matters to investors, especially when it comes to making informed investment decisions. Please do bear with us as our team (in both Malaysia & Singapore) works something out which considers all of these perspectives. We'll provide an update as soon as we've done so.

    @vamsi7 thanks for responding to this thread started by @antoniomc27 Is there any outcome from the FS on the concerns raised? Please do provide some responses to the queries


  • Funding Societies

    Hey @rahulsk1947
    Apologies, its taking slightly longer than we expected. But rest assured, its coming your way soon!



  • Would it be possible for FS to provide the investors with a simple Funding Societies' properietory credit assessment rating and scoring for the SME in your factsheet and make it an important feature in the autoinvest.

    alt text



  • @horkh Yes you are right, it may be true that this forum is owned by FS, and that they may have full control on that content is being published or discussed here.

    Hence, while our discussions here may be moderated to a certain extend, we should also put in some effort in discussing important topics outside of this forum.

    In light of the above, this is what I would like to say to all stakeholders:

    This is not intended to share sensitive information or cause harm of any form to any party, it is merely to protect the interest of investors. We as investors value very much on this 1 element, which is transparency. This is not to say that FS has not done a good job in this area, they have provided us a great deal of information through their factsheets.

    With that said, here are a couple of links that may be of help to those who intend to discuss matters which may or may not be allowed to discuss here.

    https://forum.lowyat.net/topic/4424909

    https://www.facebook.com/groups/1885723184784507

    However, keep in mind that everyone should have a common sense to which the information are shared, kindly refrain from sharing information in a public group that are deemed to be private, those information should only be circulating within a private group.

    NOTE: the above links provided are PUBLIC information and can be searched by anyone with an internet connection, and are not affiliated with me in any way or form.

    Thank you.


 

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